The Debate Begins

The storm brewing on the horizon – the 'stand off' between the MRA and PUA branches of the Manosphere – is the most exciting development in years, if you ask me. I believe this signals the growth of public awareness of these issues, and the pushback is valuable input, whether recognized as such or not.

Both PUAs and MRAs are hearing advice they need to ingest, and carefully, in order to grow and be more effective. There are practical concerns and applications both movments face that the other has advice on. And I believe it likely there will be more of these curious intersections as time goes on, and likely not from anywhere we currently even regard as relevant.

Mommy bloggers, for example, may turn out to be more in favour of us than feminists on balance. Stranger things have happened. Traditionalists might even start taking what is presented to them with some seriousness as well, as time goes on. And that doesn't even begin to cover the racial (yes, including the White Rights folks) and sexual (homo-, hetero-, etc) issues that I believe will eventually intersect here as well.

The real distinction here is that we are standing on that strange spot called "Zeta Masculinity", which may come to be known by other names by other cultures, where all sorts of interests converge. And none of us, not one, is entirely comfortable here.

We have to figure out the rules as we go, and the punishment for failure to comply is swift and sure. We have to bring new rules into existence, even in the face of biological imperative and perceived social good. And we have to do this while under constant fire from those who wish to thwart our efforts.

PUAs and MRAs find themselves here first for a few reasons I believe are important, and a few that aren't. First and foremost, PUAs got here first due to the dollar agenda so many MRAs find objectionable. The PUA movement grew out of the Self Help Industry, which means better analysis and better results meant more money. And better marketing meant more ears listening, and more money. And it means a lot of men with a hunger for knowledge and success, both with women and at life in general.

I believe to some extent, that cynical Capitalist seed is what many MRAs object to. This is because MRAs tend to have an activist mindset, and activists tend to be motivated by their sense of justice and 'right n wrong' – activists tend to be moral absolutists, which can make them a pain in the ass at cocktail parties. But they get, and keep, the ball rolling.

Not mutually exclusive in any way.

These two movements are not mutually exclusive in any way, indeed they offer new insights to each other on nearly every subject where relations between the sexes is relevant (in other words, most of the time). MRAs make the imbalances faced in Family Court and the very real risk of Rape allegations, and the best likely means to defend oneself and strategies to get a better outcome in Family Court, a topic within PUA circles. PUAs help explain the reasoning behind why women do things the way they do. And let's be honest here, I don't know a whole lot of men happy with a celibate lifestyle, and unless you're so mind-boggingly attractive women will bend to fit YOUR expectations without you trying, a better outcome with women is sure to hold value.

In many ways, the PUA approach and the MGTOW approach are virtually identical, other than the outlook chosen. PUAs fiddle while Rome burns, while MGTOWs look back at the burning buildings with detached resentment. Both have given up on society utterly, but PUAs have decided it's better to deal with the reality you're given, and swirl down the drain while riding a Yacht.

Personally, I can't fault that reasoning. But there are pitfalls which MRAs can point out that PUAs might not be aware of.

Much of the Pedestalization of women is via 'sexual divinity' type thinking. Without pussy being used as a whip and a carrot, most men wouldn't do shit for women. This is a common refrain throughout ALL of the sites analyzing these issues. And men will continue to want to get laid, and have families. The MRA tendency to demand men 'walk away' is functionally identical to a radical lesbian feminist demanding all sex be considered Rape.

In fact, PUAs provide fantastic weapons against the real enemy we face: Chivalry. They strip the facade women present away, laying bare the reality underneath, and mercilessly exploit weakness – mocking the belligerent (and celibate) White Knights while they rail the girl he's 'Protected' all night at the Bar – demonstrating the emptiness of female promises used to control the Average Frustrated Chump. And their acronyms are suitably derisive as well...who wants to be known as an AFC after all?

Without the support of this Chivalric impulse, without the masses of White Knights that still believe being 'gallant' will get him laid, Feminism is dead in the water. Without rudder or sail. Or strong backs to row the oars. Get rid of the White Knights making the rules, and Feminists are reduced to the squalling babies they are. Demonstrate to men that White Knights get laughed at, not laid, on a big enough scale, and voila, it's all over but the crying.

Men will not stand up to women until they realize that doing so will get them laid.

And MRAs will not teach that lesson, and can't even if we tried, because by and large PUAs are right about us. A good portion of the MRM is made up of older folks, or guys who have, ...limited, social skills, or guys who have been fucked over one too many times. Guys who are determined to not be of use.

You know - the guys that society usually gets rid of via war, famine, and ostracism...

We take an outsider view for a reason

When you apply Fidelbogen's analysis of Feminism to the Mens Rights Movement, you realize that here at AvfM, we are near the center of the swirling maelstrom. We are the ones who inform the ones who get things done directly. We assume the position the radfems assume within the feminist movement. This is a valid, if irrelevant, statement.

We will not be listened to directly by the general public...ever. Like it or not, applying MRA theory to the real world will be possible only through other vectors. Influencing the articles written by journalists , who then pass on the message, is the main strategy we have employed so far. But there are other avenues, and frankly the PUA community is a perfect market, and vector, for MRA analysis. Moreover, since much of what we have to say is simple common logic, and makes sense to employ/be aware of, by and large PUA writers have enabled this.

Thus far the MRM has been the dude sticking his head up, showing that it won't be cut off. We espouse unpopular ideals in the PC sense, and we speak truth to power. Lots of people may admire the guy who takes those risks, but no one wants to actually hang out with him. We are Pariahs, and we took that mantle in order to accomplish a greater good.

It's selfish to expect everyone else to make that same sacrifice. It's naive to be astonished not everyone thinks it's a good idea, or even the right thing to do. Attacking feminists is nothing more than conditioning people to accept opposition to female interests on some level. PUAs apply the same pressure to the Golden Pussy mythology, which is the very basis of Feminist power, remember.

We have positioned ourselves where we are in society for a reason. You get away with a lot of shit out here on the fringes, and we're interesting to watch for a lot of people because we push the envelope even now. But this leads to the age old debate over mass appeal vs. Integrity. And PUA/MRA. And a whole bunch of others.

Over the course of this coming debate, I believe the value in the PUA/MRA relationship will become apparent to nearly everyone (I'm not holding out hope for Alek, for example).