I'll let you in on a little secret....I was a cheeky little bastard when I was younger. OK, actually I was so argumentative nearly every teacher I had thought I was going to be a lawyer.
Anyway, I remember one day when I was about 12 or 13, sitting in the kitchen talking with my (Teacher/Feminist) mother about gender roles. Ok, actually what was going on, was that I was asking my mother about the logic of certain things, and why things were the way they were.
I kinda figure that's what kids do with parents, after all.
As we talked the subject of what we now call stay at home Moms, vs working Moms came up. Basically, I was trying to wrap my head around the dichotomy that is now known as the 'Mommy Wars'. Only I wasn't so tactful (shocking hey?) with the subject.
Basically, I asked my mother what makes a Stay Home Mom different from a long term hooker on retainer. This eventually refined itself into questioning the basis for 'supporting' women at all, as she made a great case for kids n such being a good reason. But when it got right down to it, she really couldn't supply a good argument disputing the idea that women who live off the BF's or Husband's dime, are essentially trading pussy for cash, which makes them at least on some level....whores.
Now, this is not to say I was calling all women whores. If memory serves, the point of contention was that I believe Prostitution should be legal, and she does not. But it really drove home for me the concept that a lot of women struggle with this 'fear'. Even as a preteen, I could see that my mother was troubled by her inability to make a good case. And she is a damn smart woman.
Frankly, I think this basic concept underpins an awful lot of the rhetoric of Feminism, and is also a major contributing factor to women's support of Feminism, as well as such concepts as opposing 'slut shaming' for example, or being offended at the idea of 'owing men sex'. It's the basis for the 'Anti Slut Defense' (the need to be convinced she won't be seen as a slut for...acting like one I guess), the hyper awareness of social position, etc. Or, at least a good portion of it.
The trading of sex for resources forms the very basis of male/female relationships, and even informs our mate selections on an unconscious level as well as conscious. It's the transactional nature that makes a lot of women so reactionary in this area, so eager to show how 'strong and independant' she is. The reason she is so eager to show she don't need no man is not because she hates men (usually), but because she wants to show she is paying her own way (not a whore, in any sense, in other words).
It's why 'objectification' is such an issue for a lot of women. It's why the advancement of women in Education and jobs and generally anything masculine-ish is celebrated so much. It's why a lot of women are so invested in the 'I can do anything a man can do...in heels' mentality.
They for the most part, want to show they are more than a life support system for a vagina.
Some women take this and flip it, and view men as a life support system for a wallet (or a penis). Some women actually believe most men see women as nothing more than what's between their legs (and some men DO view women that way), and some women are comfortable in their own skin.
But this whole line of questioning sort of opened up what became a dormant concept in my mind, only to be re-discovered last night when the same topic came up in discussion (my friends know I'm an MRA, so they try and force my opinion out when topics like this come up).
My opinion now?
I think women vastly undervalue themselves in the areas that count, and vastly over estimate their value in others. I think Game (and the flood of PUAs), a growing awareness of sexual dynamics that are actually accurate, rather than Academic, will go a long way towards fixing this. I think the Mens Movement (and subsequent nascent backbones men are growing) will go a long way toward curtailing the vast over rating...but will do little to educate women on their actual, real value.
So as a consequence, I think it's important to communicate to women the reason why they have their heads up their collective asses, that men tell women what they REALLY find attractive (instead of the Cosmo-inspired bullshit that is 'common knowledge' now), and negotiate a 'deal' with them. It's important now, I think, to start thinking about what we men really want out of the deal, and to let women know what that is.
Because honestly, I would be shocked as Hell if the answer was nothing more than 'Pussy, Cooking, and Cleaning'. I really, really would. So, I'm going to make an effort to write about this every once in a while, if that's ok, and I would encourage those writers out there to think about it as well. Ya never know, it could make for an interesting discussion.
Anyway, I remember one day when I was about 12 or 13, sitting in the kitchen talking with my (Teacher/Feminist) mother about gender roles. Ok, actually what was going on, was that I was asking my mother about the logic of certain things, and why things were the way they were.
I kinda figure that's what kids do with parents, after all.
As we talked the subject of what we now call stay at home Moms, vs working Moms came up. Basically, I was trying to wrap my head around the dichotomy that is now known as the 'Mommy Wars'. Only I wasn't so tactful (shocking hey?) with the subject.
Basically, I asked my mother what makes a Stay Home Mom different from a long term hooker on retainer. This eventually refined itself into questioning the basis for 'supporting' women at all, as she made a great case for kids n such being a good reason. But when it got right down to it, she really couldn't supply a good argument disputing the idea that women who live off the BF's or Husband's dime, are essentially trading pussy for cash, which makes them at least on some level....whores.
Now, this is not to say I was calling all women whores. If memory serves, the point of contention was that I believe Prostitution should be legal, and she does not. But it really drove home for me the concept that a lot of women struggle with this 'fear'. Even as a preteen, I could see that my mother was troubled by her inability to make a good case. And she is a damn smart woman.
Frankly, I think this basic concept underpins an awful lot of the rhetoric of Feminism, and is also a major contributing factor to women's support of Feminism, as well as such concepts as opposing 'slut shaming' for example, or being offended at the idea of 'owing men sex'. It's the basis for the 'Anti Slut Defense' (the need to be convinced she won't be seen as a slut for...acting like one I guess), the hyper awareness of social position, etc. Or, at least a good portion of it.
The trading of sex for resources forms the very basis of male/female relationships, and even informs our mate selections on an unconscious level as well as conscious. It's the transactional nature that makes a lot of women so reactionary in this area, so eager to show how 'strong and independant' she is. The reason she is so eager to show she don't need no man is not because she hates men (usually), but because she wants to show she is paying her own way (not a whore, in any sense, in other words).
It's why 'objectification' is such an issue for a lot of women. It's why the advancement of women in Education and jobs and generally anything masculine-ish is celebrated so much. It's why a lot of women are so invested in the 'I can do anything a man can do...in heels' mentality.
They for the most part, want to show they are more than a life support system for a vagina.
Some women take this and flip it, and view men as a life support system for a wallet (or a penis). Some women actually believe most men see women as nothing more than what's between their legs (and some men DO view women that way), and some women are comfortable in their own skin.
But this whole line of questioning sort of opened up what became a dormant concept in my mind, only to be re-discovered last night when the same topic came up in discussion (my friends know I'm an MRA, so they try and force my opinion out when topics like this come up).
My opinion now?
I think women vastly undervalue themselves in the areas that count, and vastly over estimate their value in others. I think Game (and the flood of PUAs), a growing awareness of sexual dynamics that are actually accurate, rather than Academic, will go a long way towards fixing this. I think the Mens Movement (and subsequent nascent backbones men are growing) will go a long way toward curtailing the vast over rating...but will do little to educate women on their actual, real value.
So as a consequence, I think it's important to communicate to women the reason why they have their heads up their collective asses, that men tell women what they REALLY find attractive (instead of the Cosmo-inspired bullshit that is 'common knowledge' now), and negotiate a 'deal' with them. It's important now, I think, to start thinking about what we men really want out of the deal, and to let women know what that is.
Because honestly, I would be shocked as Hell if the answer was nothing more than 'Pussy, Cooking, and Cleaning'. I really, really would. So, I'm going to make an effort to write about this every once in a while, if that's ok, and I would encourage those writers out there to think about it as well. Ya never know, it could make for an interesting discussion.
I would be shocked as Hell if the answer was nothing more than 'Pussy, Cooking, and Cleaning'.
ReplyDeleteSure. Me want to be respected and taken care of, I think. Not in that stupid feminist meme of "he wants to be treated like a kid", but in a "I'm a man and I'm busting my butt to bring home the bacon. Now it's time for you to prepare it for me and prepare it well". Does that make a woman a whore, though? And if your answer is yes, do you view her as being cheap as whores typically are viewed, or do you view that as a good thing? Women see whores as awful and being equated with one is . . . difficult. Though if we thought men liked this from a woman, some wouldn't mind it.
Stingray
I think an important aspect of this discussion is the non-transactional aspects are getting lost in the noise. Women will always want a 'good provider' no matter how many times they say otherwise. Men will always go for younger, hotter, tighter, no matter how many times they say otherwise.
ReplyDeleteThe trick lies in defining the intangibles.
The trick lies in defining the intangibles.
ReplyDeleteThe intangible things being those that women undervalue in themselves, right? I think your correct, in that sense. Women tend to think that men will value the same thing in a woman that a woman values in a man. We project. I think your list is a good base, but I think many men would add kindness and respect to those of sex, cooking and cleaning.
Stingray
Pretty much, yeah. We all project, but these days there have been a couple things that make the projection into a destructive force:
ReplyDelete1) Men have been stripped of their identity.
2) Masculinity (thus mens sexuality) has been 'officially' turned into a cartoon of reality.
Thus, men themselves no longer have a clear idea of what they should want (but they have an idea of what they do), while women get nothing but twisted lampoons of men to 'adjust' themselves to.
Ever notice the exaggerated bits of female sexuality tend to conform with Feminist understanding of what attracts men (what men are like)?
Absolutely I've noticed it and it used to be confusing as hell as the cognitive dissonance that goes along with it can be profound.
ReplyDeleteStingray