I'm not usually the kind of guy that writes whole articles in response to an author. That's what comment sections are for after all. But the blog in question, No, Seriously, What About Teh Menz? , purports to be a serious feminist attempt at addressing real mens issues. So, in the interests of progress, I hereby open my own little section of 'dialogue'.
Ozymandias' post "Who Cares About Men’s Rights?" at that site does a fairly good job of outlining the issues men face. The article even takes feminism to task for failing to live up to even the letter, let alone the 'spirit' of their own ideology. All in all, call it a good start.
Obviously the wheels came off though, or I wouldn't be writing this now would I?
The first place to start is, of course, in the criticism of the Mens Movement offered: that women experience sexism as well, that women are not evil bitches out to get us, mating difficulties are 'not issues', and MRAs are totally ineffective as a political movement.
All fair accusations. I'll respond thusly:
There is no doubt that women experience sexism. We have vast government apparatus designed to 'root out sexism against women', whole arms of government dedicated to 'women's equality', etc. It's impossible to grow up in the West without having sexism against women waved in your face constantly. But you will note, nearly all of those agencies and dollars are devoted to 'WOMEN'S equality'...men need not apply. And THAT is what 'institutionalized sexism' looks like. I just thought I'd explain that to you, because you've never seen it before.
And that is where the MRA objection on this particular issue lies.
Next up, that women are not all evil bitches out to get us. Which is obvious, and quite true. And also irrelevant. As in, you can be the nicest, sweetest, most caring woman in the world, and you will likely still be treated like a poisonous viper ready to strike at any time. And yes, it's unfair. And it's your own damned fault for not speaking up while men's legal rights were being trampled to 'protect women'.
Because there is no way out once a man is trapped in that web. Society, the Law, Human Nature, all line up to chuck you away once accused. Deadbeat Dads, Rapists, Paedophiles...that is the public image of men today, as a result of decades of Feminist misinformation through DV channels, 'Child Protection' rackets, and Government funded advocacy agencies. The risk associated with even asking a woman out (which can lose you your career if she happens to work at the same company you do) has become so great that men are deciding – en masse – that a life of porn and celibacy is preferable.
This is obviously not natural. It is also NOT the fault of men...who would obviously far rather they didn't have to live that way. Yet Feminists routinely blame men for this, and so much more.
And 'regular women' say, and do, nothing.
As for the issues facing men in the Sexual Marketplace being 'non-issues'....well, only a woman could say such a thing. Well, a woman, or a man with no concerns about trying to find a good woman and settle down. With the legal and financial minefield dating and marriage has become, knowing the 'lay of the land' is FAR more important today than it ever has been in the past. Understanding the nature of women, and more importantly shaking off the illusions installed by women themselves, is of critical importance to avoid future heartache and penury. The only safe alternative is MGTOW/avoidance. Learning Game, improving oneself, and making correct choices is a learned skill, and one that no one else is willing to teach. Most definitely NOT Feminism. That Game and PUA's success reflects badly on women as a sex is hardly of concern to me...I suggest women stop acting like that if they don't want to be treated like that.
Which brings us to the effectiveness of the MRM.
This subject makes me laugh so much when it comes up. There is no shortage of people who accuse us of being ineffective. No popular uprisings or public protests, no budget of any kind, no real organization. What you are not looking at is the RESULTS we are getting. This is almost always because you lack perspective on the difficulty we faced getting to this point.
I've been in this for a long time, and I'm positively ecstatic at the progress we are making in almost no time at all nowadays. 5 years ago, we were posting 'victory' messages to each other on blogs when we got a Letter to the Editor published in the Des Moines Register. There was a total media blackout of anything even remotely related to mens issues. We consisted of one or two guys with some cash/clout (Glenn Sacks, Marc Rudov) and mostly a bunch of broke dads with nothing else to do with their time but hang out on the internet.
Fast forward to today, and the most glaring victory we have had is the breaking of the Feminist Hegemony. We are developing a new understanding of masculinity and relations between the sexes, without funding of any sort. It has become acceptable to question Political Correctness and Feminism in public, with diminished possibility of career damage for doing so. We got a hateful talk-show host to resign and an important issue finally got some airtime. We have issues like Child Support, Father Custody, DV on men, Cultural Misandry, Male Genital Mutilation, and Male Suicide on the national RADAR.
Something Feminists have never even attempted to do by the way.
We have made STAGGERING progress, and when you consider the vast majority of it was done by a few dozen guys, on their own time, for free, it's fucking miraculous!
Needless to say, I take issue with Ozy's characterization of the MRM.
So much for the defense part. Now to the helpful criticisms I have for Feminists who want to 'help men' (suddenly...although it was not in response, at all, to pressure from a burgeoning MRM...oh no, that would be another demonstration of the effectiveness of the MRM, and the point here is to DISCREDIT the MRM, not 'support' it, or men)...
My first point is perhaps best illustrated using your very own words...oh 'concerned feminist'...
And the problem is that it wasn’t actively hateful and it did contain… actual points… of a sort, so there was really no valid way to delete it according to the comment policy.
I suggest we ignore him.
And therein lies the real rub we have with Feminists, if you don't want to hear what men are telling you are the issues, how the FUCK can you then turn around and claim to 'represent' men in changing those injustices? If your main, and nearly only, concern is making sure Feminism isn't trarnished by the measures taken to improve mens' rights, to the point where you DENY that Feminism had anything to do with such issues as No Fault Divorce, Restraining Orders, unbalanced understanding of DV, and wildly overbroad 'rape' definitions...what value do you have to men, and the issues they face?
You have money? Is that it? You have clout, and if men 'shape up' you might be prepared to use it for men? Well gee, ain't you a peach? Feminists, and Feminism, has proven itself to be the devout enemy of men and masculinity since it's very inception. There are very specific criticisms of Feminism leveled by MRAs every time a 'dialogue' like this comes up, none of which are ever addressed by feminists. In fact, the very next 'concerned' feminist to come along will make the very same arguments, ad infinitum.
Feminists do a very bad job of updating information among themselves, it seems. Either that, or they believe in that Nazi Propaganda maxim 'A lie told often enough...'
The criticism of the anger in the MRM is even more laughable, in my humble opinion. The anger is what is GROWING the MRM...not 'diminishing' it. The speed at which angry young men are clumping together in this movement terrifies the shit out of a lot of people, feminists included. And it should. It really should.
But you are not, EVER going to get them to 'tone it down' unless real change happens. And the more you spend your time defending yourselves, the more of your attention directed towards making sure you come out of this smelling as much like a rose as possible, the more anger will be built up. We are not oblivious to the fact that, when addressing mens issues, you Feminists spend nearly 100% of your time and energy trying to make sure that any dirt that gets thrown doesn't land on you. In brilliant example after another of narcissistic attitude, absolutely NONE of you admit to being wrong, about anything. It's always 'no true feminist would do that' and 'none of my friends are like that, and neither am I'....
So let's see, either none of you are like that, and all of these anti-male aspects of society, many of which specifically reference feminism as inspiration, simply popped up out of nowhere, or;
A good portion of you are lying your sick fuckin' asses off. And there's no way to tell which, until it's way too late....
Let's use Ozy's words again....
We are people, just like everyone else, and some of us are bastards and some of us are saints and most of us are just muddling through. Some feminists thought that this whole “sexism” thing was the fault of evil rapey woman-hating men back in the seventies, but as it turns out with a few shining exceptions men don’t hate women. Sometimes they have mistaken beliefs about women, and sometimes incentive structures are set up so that sexist behavior is rewarded, and sometimes a lot of other stuff that’s nobody’s fault, but very rarely is someone like “aha! I will go oppress women today!”
Feminists, and women, are finding themselves in the beginnings of what faced men in the late '80's and early '90's. ALL women are facing the blame for what Feminism has done to men, because women as a group stood behind feminists while they disemboweled the men around them. Because women as a group are still following the practices and taking the attitudes that repulse men, and damage relationships. Because we still live in a 'you go grrrl' society, and the average woman doesn't even blink at the most appalling sexism if it's perpetrated against men, since she's been conditioned to not only accept it, but feel that way herself.
Pay attention to this line of your own text Ozy:
"Sometimes they have mistaken beliefs about women, and sometimes incentive structures are set up so that sexist behavior is rewarded,"
I want to leave you with that particular quote, and I want you to flip that around. I want you to consider that it is quite possible that you're wrong about a good deal of things. I want you to consider that you are so immersed in a Misandric culture, that you don't even notice 90% of it. To use the title of another Blog, I want you to Own Your Shit.
Because if there is one single thing that Feminism and feminists fail to do, every single time, without fail, it's to own up to their mistakes. And until you can do that, you have no business asking for our attention, at all.